Kari Seitz on growing the USA’s referee corps: battling abuse, changing culture and dramatic milestones

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U.S. Soccer expanded its referee department leadership in April of 2024 when Kari Seitz became its first Vice President of Refereeing. The new role marked a homecoming for Seitz, who had spent the previous eight years with Switzerland-based FIFA, most recently as Head of Refereeing, Women. Before overseeing refereeing for 15 FIFA world championship events, Seitz officiated at four Women’s World Cups and three Olympics. In the era before full-time pro reffing in the USA, Seitz in 1998-2013 officiated in MLS, WUSA, WPS and the NWSL while working as a full-time advertising executive.

We spoke with Seitz, who is charged with growing the nation’s corps of referees, shortly after U.S. Soccer unveiled its strengthened “Referee Abuse Prevention” policy, which includes detailed consequences for offenses by players and coaches in American youth and amateur soccer.

SOCCER AMERICA: What were you challenged with achieving when U.S. Soccer hired you?

KARI SEITZ: Grow the number of referees. Because we have to meet the current need while knowing we have to put the U.S. in a position to grow the game. We’ve got the Club World Cup and World Cup coming and we’re anticipating the exponential growth of soccer. If we don’t have the number of referees needed for the game today, we certainly won’t in the future.

The bigger question is where to start. I recognized a few things we had to tackle. One is changing culture. Fundamentally it’s going to be hard to grow referees if they’re working in the same culture. It isn’t working. 

Truly, my mission is to establish refereeing as an essential and respected part of the success of soccer in our country. We’re not more important than the games, but we’re a service to the game. If you want to attract people to give back and participate you have to treat it as essential and respect it.

In our office, we ask what can we do to service the game? We need to create a really strong foundation. We have to have a pathway where we can get more coaches and mentors for referees.

SA: Ten months into your tenure, U.S. Soccer announced the strengthing of its Referee Abuse Prevention policy. Before we discuss that, what were your experiences with abuse?

KARI SEITZ: I had a trifecta of challenges. I was younger, small in stature, and female. You walk to the field and they assume that you know nothing. It’s a cultural bias. 

You got the, ‘Go back to the kitchen … you don’t belong here. …’

There weren’t many people like me. There weren’t many other female faces. 

SA: What were your most severe experiences?

KARI SEITZ:  I remember being grabbed by a spectator. I had a flag with a wooden handle. It must have weighed five pounds or more. I just threatened this guy, put my arm up, and everybody backed away, and then they supported me. 

But I always knew that if I had ever been assaulted — luckily I was not physically assaulted — that I would call the police. I saw other referees assaulted and they didn’t bother reporting. They just walked away. 

SA: You began refereeing in 1984. I came across a story about an early experience you had — one that could have easily led a 14-year-old to quit officiating. …

KARI SEITZ: I did a game my second year, reffing U-12 boys. The game was 10-0. One team was phenomenal. 

One kid on the losing team was just so frustrated, he grabs the back of a player’s shirt. He just tears the pieces off. I give the red card and the fans go crazy, just nuts. I don’t know what they were saying, I just heard the volume. I see them coming on the field, like they’re going to come after me.

I don’t know if the call was right, because I’m a child, and I doubt myself.

A guy comes by in a cart. I jump on the cart. He was the head of the competition of this tournament in Michigan, where I grew up. He tells me the call was correct and says: “Look, you showed a lot of courage.”

That’s not what I was thinking because the incident was so upsetting. And that moment changed things for me. He tells me, “I want you to come back and do the final.”

SA: An example of how important it is for referees to have support …

KARI SEITZ: He was somebody who recognized it was an important moment. He convinced me it wasn’t my fault, that I was, in fact, right, and that all these people were out of their minds.

So, yes, I encountered lots and lots of abuse. If I hadn’t had people behind me that supported me at key moments, I would have walked away like so many young people do.

There are a million things you could do instead of reffing. And that’s why it’s so important that we do our best to make a safe working environment.

SA: U.S. Soccer’s updated Referee Abuse Prevention policy is an ambitious move to impact behavior — all the way down to grassroots youth soccer and adult amateur leagues around the nation. What makes you confident that it will succeed?

KARI SEITZ: It was very important that the people who have to implement the policy have a say in the policy. Because we are a large and fragmented soccer community, the way to get buy-in was to have everyone contribute in some way. We involved representatives from members and affiliates during the course of the whole process. We had open sessions for people across the soccer community to chime in. A number stakeholders had input, including the Athletes’ Council, Youth Council, Adult Council, Member Advisory Council. 

SA: What was the feedback from the member organizations … 

KARI SEITZ: Mostly, it was, “Thank you for doing this.” And that was heartwarming. Obviously, there are some really strong penalties.

SA: The statistic citing that 60% of referees “choose not to recertify due to harassment and threats” makes stemming abuse vital to your quest to grow the number of high-quality referees …

KARI SEITZ: Right, but it’s even bigger than protecting our referees. Because the entire game suffers. We want to protect the game. Our game is awesome, it’s special, it’s international. This is also about enabling the potential of our players.

We may not eliminate abuse but we can change the tone and we can significantly reduce it.

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SA: I don’t think that historically players and coaches arrive at a field aware of specific consequences of their behavior, which makes me believe the well-designed materials that detail the “penalty framework” could at least serve as a significant deterrent. But what’s the key to successful enforcement?

KARI SEITZ: We’re striving to make the reporting process easy. Policies have been in place, but we imagine that incidents are under-reported. Even people who suffer physical abuse don’t always report it.  Phase 3 of the RAP Policy improvement will kick off in March, at which point we’ll look to address this portion of the policy.

SA: Obviously, clubs, leagues and regional governing bodies already have disciplinary procedures. Why is it important that they’re linked to the Federation?

KARI SEITZ: Reporting will lead to the gathering of data. Where do we have particular problems? And then we can create programs to help. The aim is to create accountability and beyond enforcement, ensure that we change the culture.

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SA: Can you speak to the cost of refereeing, which may affect recruitment and retention? (My annual renewal — through the U.S. Soccer Learning Center — cost $80 and I had to pay $24 for my annual background check.)

KARI SEITZ: It’s $40 to become a referee. Any additional cost is what the state adds, because that’s how they fund the referee development. In some states, it costs $150.

A bigger state with a lot of referees will have a larger budget. In a smaller state with fewer people, they may not be able to afford the coverage of their referees, so they add to the fees.

In the United States, the soccer economy is such that referees fund themselves. It’s borne on the back of the match officials themselves. People understand they have to pay referees a game fee, but the soccer community hasn’t taken on this idea that referee development is an important investment in our game.

Our community doesn’t realize how much comes out of referees’ own pocket. Referees who want to advance to higher levels pay their own way to go to competitions so they can be seen. They do it because they really love it. At some point, you can imagine that, despite their love for it, and they’re abused, they’ll decide to spend their money in other ways.

SA: At the United Soccer Coaches convention in January, you seemed to imply that there are people profiting off referees?

KARI SEITZ: In some leagues, the assigner gets paid by the club and league, then charges the referees to referee the game. There are people who charge more for the background checks than they really cost. There are people who are charging more for the uniforms than they’re sold for. There are people requiring referees to be part of an association and charging them despite the fact that referees don’t need to join. Some are doing it because they want to afford to be able to provide services.

Most important is the fact that most referees pay for their own development and programming.

We need to rethink the referee economy. There has to be an investment in their development and we have to figure out the best way to do that that’s fair for everyone. In most countries, what is the cost to be a referee? Zero. They recruit you. They give you the uniform. They’re thrilled you’re there.

We can’t really afford to make it free. We’re too big and too fragmented for that. But it’s worth evaluating where that investment should come from for the development and how soccer can help alleviate that burden.

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SA: In my coaching course experience, the rules and refereeing were neglected. Although I haven’t researched it recently, I’ve not heard of coach license courses testing rule knowledge or including refereeing education. Are you aware of how U.S. Soccer coach licensing includes refereeing?

KARI SEITZ: It’s a great question and I’ve started to investigate it because I believe we need to bring coaching and refereeing together. I know I want to educate my referees about the game. I have had discussions with the coaching education group here at U.S. Soccer. We’ve met with their current class of youth coaches and we’re going to be developing more content for them. 

You want to teach key aspects that cause the most questions and make sure they’re up to date with on law changes. We want to create practical content so coaches know what referees are doing. That can cut down on abuse, because sometimes the anger comes from misunderstanding.

SA: I think part of getting a coaching license should require refereeing during the course.

KARI SEITZ: That’s a great idea. We’re open to everything.

SA: Can you to describe how many fewer girls and women were reffing in your era compared to now?

KARI SEITZ: When I was young, I would maybe see one lady at an event, or only a couple female faces now and then. Every year there were a few more. And obviously that number has gone up. But still, the percentage is quite low. …

When I stopped refereeing, 22% of referees were women. I was gone for eight-plus years, and I came back, and we still have 22%.

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SA: Do you think that girls and women today might not be exposed to as much sexism as you were?

KARI SEITZ: Yes, but also no. We started a women’s initiative to develop women referees. We also have groups for officials in other under-served groups. When I spoke to our women’s group, I asked them to tell me what they’re dealing with today. What are the challenges that you need help to address? And they were a lot of the same things I faced, and in some ways a little bit worse, because of the social internet.

It’s actually coaches hitting on them or making them feel vulnerable. There was also a lot of harassment by other men’s officials. It hasn’t changed as much as I would have liked. There are still barriers, like not being treated equally even by the referring community. Not always supporting them and maybe even belittling them.

What is different is they have lot of amazing role models, like Tori Penso, Natalie Simon, Alyssa Nichols … and hopefully access to the support networks we’re creating.

SA: Do you think male soccer players treat women referees differently than they do male referees? If so, examples? Better or worse?

KARI SEITZ: There are actually pluses: being underestimated can be a good thing. I try to position it as a positive. It’s more about the assumption that you’re less good, so you have to prove yourself all the time. But once the player recognizes that you’re just a good referee, they don’t bother you anymore and stop treating you differently. So that part can be overcome.

But it could wear you down, because you had to prove yourself every time, where other match officials walk out there and do not have to labor so much. But when you built your reputation, you had your reputation. It’s really just a matter of bias, and you can change that with your work and your reputation.

Frankly, players were the least of my issues to deal with. It’s really the technical benches, it’s getting the assignments. It was the stuff outside and around the game that made it more difficult.

SA: I doubt most comprehend the magnificent growth and progress of American refereeing. Besides keeping up with increased demand for officials — with 30 teams MLS is twice as big as 15 years ago; MLS Next Pro and the USL’s Women’s Super League recently joining USL men’s leagues and the NWSL at the highest levels — what milestones would you point to?

KARI SEITZ: I think the most dramatic milestone — it’s absolutely incredible — we had U.S. referees on the podium after the finals of the last two World Cups. We’ve never had someone on one, let alone two. 

[2022 World Cup final: Ismail Elfath (4^th official), Kyle Atkins (offside VAR), Kathryn Nesbitt (reserve AR), and Corey Parker (reserve AVAR). 2023 Women’s World Cup final: Tori Penso (referee), Brooke Mayo (AR), Kathryn Nesbitt (AR) and Armando Villarreal (AVAR).]

Their performances earned them their spots in the most important games in the biggest competitions in the world. It wasn’t that long ago — and Esse Baharmast can tell you his experience — when U.S. referees had zero respect. …

… And we are one of the few countries who have true professional referees. Even Italy doesn’t.

SA: PRO, the Professional Referee Organization, launched in 2012 and beginning 2013 the USA has had full-time, salaried referees. If that opportunity had been available during your career, would you have quit your job?

KARI SEITZ: Knowing the salary they receive now, yes, I would have.

SA: You ran an ad agency, so you basically had two full-time jobs but reffing didn’t pay you a full-time salary. …

KARI SEITZ: I was very lucky. I accomplished a lot. I opened a lot of doors. I got to go to incredible events, thanks much to our women’s team and their qualities.

But how much better I could have been as a referee had I been able to dedicate myself to it? The sky’s the limit, I imagine. I felt I was a decent referee but I think I could have been a really great referee with that opportunity

SA: You must have been a very busy person …

KARI SEITZ: You can’t imagine. Running this ad agency in San Francisco and Seattle. Training in the morning when it’s dark with a personal coach at my own expense. Advertising is a service job, so I didn’t get home until 9 at night.

I don’t know how I survived, but it’s definitely made me a stronger person, and willing to take on an opportunity like this one at U.S. Soccer.

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